On the Teenage Kicks Podcast, we dive into the topics parents often find hardest to talk about – especially when it comes to teenage mental health, identity, and family relationships.
In this powerful episode, we’re joined by counsellor Jon Wilson Cooper, who shares openly about his own journey with mental health, and what it was really like growing up with a sibling with significant disabilities. Jon’s story offers valuable insight for parents trying to understand their teenagers’ emotions, particularly when life feels unfair, overwhelming, or confusing.
Jon talks candidly about the complicated feelings he experienced as a teen:
- The embarrassment of being seen in public with his deaf brother, who also had behavioural challenges and a severe learning disability
- The jealousy he felt over the constant attention his brother needed
- And the shame of having those feelings in the first place
These are exactly the kinds of uncomfortable, very human emotions many teenagers struggle with, but rarely talk about. As parents, hearing Jon articulate these experiences can help us better understand what might be going on beneath the surface for our own teens.
One of the most powerful parts of the discussion is Jon’s explanation of the difference between shame and guilt, and why this distinction is crucial for young people. Shame can be paralysing, shutting teens down and stopping them from opening up. Guilt, however, can be managed, discussed, and learned from. Jon shares how we, as parents, can help our teenagers reject toxic shame, navigate guilt in healthy ways, and build emotional resilience.
If you’re a parent worried about your teenager’s wellbeing, feeling unsure how to support them, or wanting to understand the emotional pressures they might be facing, this episode offers compassion, clarity, and practical guidance. It’s a must-listen for anyone hoping to build stronger communication, deeper trust, and a healthier emotional environment at home.
Listen to the podcast on teenage shame
Who is Jon Wilson Cooper?
Jon is a qualified psychotherapist, trainer, and organisational consultant with over 38 years’ experience of helping people with their mental health. He is the Founder and Director of The Albany Centre for personal and professional development, which is a counselling training institute and therapy. He also runs Mosaic Counselling Services CIC (a low-cost counselling service) in St Albans, Hertfordshire. He has worked in the UK, America, and India in a variety of settings with a wide range of clients, including those with addiction issues, mental health problems and histories of personal trauma. Jon has a special interest in helping individuals raise awareness of their blocks to emotional well-being and making positive life choices.
Jon is also a TEDx speaker whose talk on why people hate was chosen as one of the top TEDx talks of 2024.
Jon welcomes connection – you can find him on LinkedIn, via his website, or by following his Substack articles.
Watch the podcast
Podcast transcript episode 98 – Jon Wilson Cooper
00:03.40
helenkwills
Today is a treat for me because I get to hear more about my guest on a personal level, having known him for three years as my counselling tutor. We’re going to talk about what it’s like growing up with a sibling with a learning disability. John Wilson Cooper is a qualified psychotherapist, a trainer and an organisational consultant with over 38 years experience of working closely with humans and their emotions.
00:32.24
helenkwills
He is the founder and director of the Albany Center in St Albans, a counseling training institute and therapy center, as well as mosaic counseling services, a low cost counseling service also in St Albans. John is also a TEDx speaker whose talk this year has had 28 and a half views in the first three days of going live on the TEDx website. I’m going to ask him about the nerves of speaking in front of so many people.
01:01.77
helenkwills
and what it’s like to be involved in such a prestigious event. John has worked all over the world in a wide range with a wide range of clients, including those with addiction issues, mental health problems, and histories of personal trauma. He has a special interest in helping individuals raise awareness of their blocks to emotional wellbeing and make positive life choices. John, welcome to Teenage Kicks.
01:28.57
Jon Wilson Cooper
Hello, thank you for having me.
01:31.06
helenkwills
Oh, no, it’s so nice for me. I’m so excited because it’s so nice for me to talk to you on a more personal level in my space because normally I’m sitting in a room which is entirely created by you, although I think you’re probably going to tell me it’s co-created by everybody in the room. um And I’m kind of in, well, I’ve grown up a lot in the last three years, but I’ve i’ve always been in the space of, oh, this is the guy in charge and I need to behave myself. Whereas here, I’m in charge.
01:59.77
helenkwills
but
01:59.94
Jon Wilson Cooper
ah Revenge put me on the spot. Yeah. Yeah. No, it’s lovely to be here. And yeah, I mean, I’m i’m really up for the conversation.
02:10.73
helenkwills
Fantastic because um actually before we really dig into it, um one of the things that I was nervous about talking to you on here is that this is a very personal podcast.
02:23.09
helenkwills
And I do ask my guests to go deep and talk about really tough things. And you have always, to me, been someone who’s been incredibly private.
02:35.34
helenkwills
And that’s something that I know is born, well, it’s born out of lots of things and you can tell us about it. But I know one of those things is that as a counsellor, it’s about the client, it’s not about you.
02:48.14
helenkwills
um So what’s it like to have to come here and talk about
02:48.45
Jon Wilson Cooper
Yes.
02:53.39
helenkwills
your own personal stuff and put it out in the world.
02:57.05
Jon Wilson Cooper
Well in some ways the same principle applies. I mean as a trainer and as a therapist I do occasionally share personal stuff but it’s with a lot of consideration about whether or not it’s useful to the other person. So I sometimes do disclose as a trainer um But I do think long and hard about the impact of that on people, whether it’s going to maybe disable them or whether it facilitates a conversation. um So i think I do think personal experience, mine and students’ personal experience is the richest learning there is. So I’m certainly up for sharing. um And I think the podcast is the same. I think if my experience is actually useful to people,
03:42.61
Jon Wilson Cooper
um If it’s useful to parents and maybe teenagers that are going through similar experiences that I had as a child um That’s a good thing um And you know, i’ve I’ve moved beyond feeling any kind of shame about my experience.
03:45.30
helenkwills
Mmm.
03:55.98
Jon Wilson Cooper
I think shame was a big part of my teenage years um But i’ve I’ve done sufficient work I think on myself to not carry that shame anymore about my experience So I’m up for answering questions about what happened for me
04:05.46
helenkwills
Mmm. you
04:12.95
helenkwills
Awesome. um We will talk about shame because I think that’s something that I mean mostly this is parents who are listening to this podcast but sometimes we do have young people and I’m not sure that most people know that what they’re experiencing is shame in these situations so it might be quite illuminating.
04:34.51
helenkwills
John, just to get us started, tell us a little bit about what it was like growing up in your house and particularly as you came into those adolescent years.
04:45.24
Jon Wilson Cooper
o Well, to give it some context, um my brother was born six years before me, and he was strangled by the umbilical cord as he was being born, ah which cut off the oxygen supply supplied to his brain, obviously.
05:01.14
Jon Wilson Cooper
um My parents were told he probably wouldn’t survive the night. um And then they said, the doctor said, if he does, he’ll be fine. But it’s unlikely he’s going to survive the night.
05:12.01
Jon Wilson Cooper
So my parents, um they got him baptized, they were Christian at the time.
05:12.01
helenkwills
Wow.
05:17.03
Jon Wilson Cooper
um And they kind of braced themselves, I think, for him to die. ah they didn’t The doctors didn’t put him into an incubator. So I mean, there was a lot of negligence involved around his birth. ah apparently it’s fairly common to be born with the umbilical cord around your neck and it just needs to be dealt with rapidly and the child needs to go into an incubator those things didn’t happen so the result of that was I think a very large part of his brain was was killed off very large part um and he did survive my parents were very slow to recognize that he wasn’t hit in developmental milestones I think in that era
05:30.99
helenkwills
you
05:55.47
Jon Wilson Cooper
ah Babies weren’t being checked on to the same extent um Nowadays you use you see a medical practitioner fairly frequently when you’ve got a baby um So my brother wasn’t properly diagnosed for a while um so Yes, he had a severe learning disability.
05:58.44
helenkwills
Hmm. Yeah. yeah
06:13.41
Jon Wilson Cooper
I would say probably the mental age of a two-year-old um and real limited ability to communicate even So ah that was what I was born into, this brother that was six years older, but I probably overtook him when I was about two in terms of capability.
06:29.51
helenkwills
Right.
06:31.53
Jon Wilson Cooper
um And it restricts everything. um There’s this concept that when you have a disability in the family, the family’s disabled.
06:41.50
helenkwills
right
06:41.70
Jon Wilson Cooper
um And so that was very much kind of my experience that we were different to other families. um And we were restricted so other things that other families would take for granted um We wouldn’t do so we didn’t go out to events. We didn’t do very much. My family were quite unsocial um And where shame comes into that is is being very very aware of that difference um and so thinking I think as a child that it reflected on me that I was somehow different to anybody else and
07:18.20
Jon Wilson Cooper
um
07:19.12
helenkwills
Hmm.
07:19.41
Jon Wilson Cooper
And kind of wanting to hide And probably the most difficult experience as a child was being dragged around the shops on a Saturday as a family My my parents were very keen that we should all go shopping into the center of town every Saturday um and as a I think it was just that was what we did so that was probably the only thing we did as a family where we went out into the world um and
07:35.02
helenkwills
Hmm. What was that about?
07:46.94
Jon Wilson Cooper
That was so embarrassing, because my brother would have tantrums. So it was a big fight to even leave the house.
07:52.12
helenkwills
yeah
07:54.65
Jon Wilson Cooper
And then he would just walk up the street talking to himself, sometimes shouting to himself waving his arms, directing traffic, all sorts of stuff, which you can imagine is absolutely mortifying when you’re 13 and you’re trying to be cool.
08:07.45
helenkwills
reached
08:08.68
Jon Wilson Cooper
yeah It’s like, Oh, I really hope I don’t bump into anybody from school.
08:09.90
helenkwills
Yeah.
08:12.66
helenkwills
Yeah. Yeah. Did that ever happen?
08:16.06
Jon Wilson Cooper
um When I was very young, yes, when I was in primary school, I remember another kid saying to me, Oh, your brother’s a bit odd. um And why is are he wearing a radio?
08:28.92
Jon Wilson Cooper
Because he had he had a hearing aid.
08:30.20
helenkwills
Oh,
08:30.99
Jon Wilson Cooper
And and one of the really old fashioned ones with leads and everything. um And it was an odd experience, because I was absolutely mortified by the question.
08:34.34
helenkwills
poor kid.
08:39.66
Jon Wilson Cooper
And actually looking back on it, I think it was perfectly innocent.
08:42.38
helenkwills
Yes.
08:42.88
Jon Wilson Cooper
You know, he wasn’t making fun of me or all of my brother, actually, he was just asking a question. But I think I had a heightened sense of being judged. um And I think that really stuck in my mind. And it’s like, I really don’t want anyone to see my brother, or yeah to to see me with him.
09:01.89
helenkwills
Right, well that’s what that’s the sense I was getting that yes it’s embarrassing, it’s awkward, it’s difficult um and it’s about your brother but I had a kind of image in my head of you hiding behind him as you were out there in the centre of town.
09:20.54
Jon Wilson Cooper
I think I probably would have hid altogether, not behind him.
09:23.41
helenkwills
Yeah, yeah.
09:24.72
Jon Wilson Cooper
You know, I think if I could have darted down an alley and not been seen at all, that would have been my preference.
09:29.44
helenkwills
oh
09:31.05
Jon Wilson Cooper
ah The difficulty was I think my parents were so stressed by the whole thing that they had no patience for me at all. So me protesting or wanting to not go with them into town, I think would have been quite dangerous.
09:49.12
Jon Wilson Cooper
They were at the end of their tether. quite often. And that that really is the feeling of my childhood. They had ah no spare capacity. um And their attitude towards me was, well, you’re fine.
10:03.73
Jon Wilson Cooper
you know we’ve got to We’ve got to look after him.
10:04.38
helenkwills
right yeah what did you do with those feelings if you couldn’t voice them to your parents you knew you weren’t going to get the response that you were looking for right
10:06.46
Jon Wilson Cooper
You’re fine. um And that’s really stayed with me or all my life is that, well, you’re OK. You don’t need anything. You’re fine. um And that’s something I’ve carried, really.
10:26.61
Jon Wilson Cooper
I think I just kind of buried them. I think I i really took on their attitudes, which is you’re making a fuss about nothing. I remember my mum saying that a lot. Oh, you’re making a fuss about nothing.
10:38.00
Jon Wilson Cooper
um You know, stop moaning, ah you know, stop crying, or I’ll give you something to cry about. There was a real kind of, yes, there’s a real intolerance.
10:44.38
helenkwills
Oh yeah, that one.
10:47.04
Jon Wilson Cooper
And I think, you know, I really kind of adapted to that and just shut down and switched off. and just had very low expectations of anybody really caring about me um and just getting kind of getting on with it.
11:01.26
Jon Wilson Cooper
um To quite extreme extents, actually, um there’s a few incidents in my childhood where that were quite extreme that I realized I still wasn’t going to get what I needed.
11:01.31
helenkwills
Yeah.
11:13.87
Jon Wilson Cooper
um My first one was when I was six. A kid in class gave me a piggyback and I fell over the top and hit my the top of my head. on solid ground, which split my head and um there’s blood everywhere. um And what happened is we went into the school office, blood all over my shirt. um They called my mum and they said, you know, he needs to go to hospital. He needs stitches.
11:38.85
Jon Wilson Cooper
She eventually turns up at the school. I’m sitting there really distressed and she says, how am I going to get this blood out of your shirt? What a pain and and and wasting my time.
11:45.78
helenkwills
Oh.
11:48.11
Jon Wilson Cooper
We’ve now got to go to the hospital. And she was so cross that she had to take me to A and&E and that she had a bloody shirt to deal with. um And I remember consciously thinking, right, that’s it.
12:00.10
Jon Wilson Cooper
I’m never going to cry with her again. um You know, it’s just she’s not ever going to give me what I need. um And that was the first of a number of incidents. I had a similar one where I broke my arm.
12:11.88
Jon Wilson Cooper
And my mum, again, said I was making a fuss about nothing and wasting time.
12:16.15
helenkwills
Mm.
12:16.74
Jon Wilson Cooper
um And because that’s the first time I broke my arm, it was cracking my elbow. um And the surgeon said, actually, we can’t put it in a cast because it’s your elbow.
12:22.15
helenkwills
Mm-hmm.
12:26.23
Jon Wilson Cooper
We have to put it in a sling for a few weeks. And she said, well, it’s not even properly broken. You didn’t get a cast. So that was so, you know, that was
12:33.30
helenkwills
right so very dismissive of your needs emotional needs because she had so much else that was that felt bigger to her i assume yeah
12:36.67
Jon Wilson Cooper
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, literally making a fuss about nothing, whatever it was. and um and they I think so. Yeah, I think, you know, and and they, they were similar. I mean, my dad was warmer, but I think he still had the same attitude. It was still very much like, well, he’s the one with the problems. Your brother is, you know, needs, needs a lot of help.
13:04.26
helenkwills
Yeah, it’s almost like, as you were talking about these things, I was thinking, these are quite normal things. I mean, they’re fairly extreme normal things, but they’re quite normal things that kids do go through.
13:13.38
Jon Wilson Cooper
Oh yeah.
13:13.68
helenkwills
I had a friend, I was in A&E once or twice as a kid. Most kids are, my kids have been. So for them, I suppose it must have felt like, well, this is normal, this is childhood stuff compared to what was going on with your brother, which was not normal at all.
13:33.08
helenkwills
But for you as a child with this going on, it was huge because the pain, the drama of it all.
13:41.43
Jon Wilson Cooper
Yeah, and the complete lack of empathy, I think.
13:44.54
helenkwills
Yeah.
13:45.45
Jon Wilson Cooper
I mean, the other thing that made it difficult is stay they had stacks and stacks of denial. So as well as saying he’s quite needy, they they also said, oh, he’s not that bad.
13:56.00
Jon Wilson Cooper
He’s not as bad as some. um And yeah they would compare me to the him that he would have been if he hadn’t been disabled. So they had this fantasy of him being incredibly bright.
14:10.78
Jon Wilson Cooper
He happens to be quite quite reasonable arithmetic. He does ah basic sums. And they said, ah, he’s got a talent for maths.
14:17.16
helenkwills
Right.
14:19.10
Jon Wilson Cooper
If he’d have been normal, he probably would have been a maths genius and would have gone off to university to do maths.
14:20.55
helenkwills
Oh. oh
14:25.91
Jon Wilson Cooper
I remember them saying this. So then I was being compared to this fantasy brother that was incredibly capable.
14:31.40
helenkwills
Right. Right. Oh, there’s something in that about compensating for what your for what your child has. and wishing it were different, but reassuring yourself about how it could have been different would have been different.
14:50.55
helenkwills
Is that it? I mean, it’s either of that or it’s beating yourself up about how how different it could have been.
15:00.29
Jon Wilson Cooper
Yeah.
15:00.33
helenkwills
It sounds like they were trying to put a positive spin on on everything to, as you say, deny that it was as bad as it was, to feel better about
15:07.69
Jon Wilson Cooper
Yeah. Yeah, they they never spoke to me about how hard it was for them, um what it was like for them, um which in turn kind of denied me the right to talk about that.
15:16.17
helenkwills
Hmm.
15:23.64
Jon Wilson Cooper
So I don’t remember them ever talking to me about what my experience was like, and how it was hard for me having a brother like this. um And the the first time I had that was actually an aunt ah was was talking to me.
15:38.11
Jon Wilson Cooper
And she said, oh, this must be really hard for you. And that was so significant, it really stays in my mind. That was the first adult that actually acknowledged what the impact on me would be.
15:50.88
Jon Wilson Cooper
But as I say, that was kind of tied up with, you know, they’re not really allowing themselves to talk about the impact, about how hard this was.
15:58.51
helenkwills
Yeah, yeah. That’s an interesting put moment to just bring in ah the dilemma that I think parents have when there’s something difficult in their lives. I remember, well, I don’t, I do, I didn’t know this at the time. I know it now looking back, but my parents went through a stage when we were quite poor.
16:20.37
helenkwills
And I only know that because they never spoke to me about it. I only know that because I look at what our diet was like for a few years when I was a child and when it noticeably and very suddenly significantly improved.
16:27.48
Jon Wilson Cooper
Hmm. Hmm.
16:35.48
helenkwills
um they never ever mentioned it to me and I’ve always thought that was a good thing and I’ve i’ve i’ve um been quite impressed by them for that because no as a parent I’ve often wondered how much to tell my own kids about how how difficult I’m finding life, things in the family,
16:59.12
helenkwills
um And I think parents wrestle with themselves all the time about how much to learn, how much to hide from their kids. Well, what is your take on, I mean, I know what your take is, but I want you to tell, I want you to tell the listeners your take on that.
17:18.82
Jon Wilson Cooper
I think one of our jobs as parents is to actually teach our children how to deal with adversity. um And that’ that’s a really important task, that if we shield our kids from the painful realities of life, they don’t get to learn. They don’t get to learn from our experience and our struggles. A case in point was I remember we had a cat die when my daughter was very young. She must have been about four years old, four or five years old. And we we were told that the cat was on the side of the road, having been hit by a car.
17:55.82
Jon Wilson Cooper
So me and my partner went to pick up the cat and brought it home. And my daughter was was with us. um And we buried the cat. And my wife was distraught. She was absolutely sobbing. And we talked about it afterwards and thought, actually, that’s quite a good thing that my daughter saw this. I mean, she was ah obviously upset, too. But we were able to talk about it and say, this is a really sad thing. And it’s really OK to cry about this really sad thing.
18:24.43
Jon Wilson Cooper
um so My daughter had this kind of lesson of, and yeah, painful things happen. ah And we survived them. And it’s okay to have feelings about it. So I think I understand the desire to protect. But I think what that can do is it makes things secretive.
18:45.38
Jon Wilson Cooper
um And kids think oh, it’s not okay to talk about this um It’s not okay to have feelings about this because my parents don’t they’re the role models so if they don’t talk about this either it’s not a problem or It’s so awful that it can’t be talked about um And I think that’s the that’s an unconscious message that gets transmitted It’s like this must be terrible if they’re not going to talk about it and we have to keep it a secret and not tell anybody
18:45.40
helenkwills
Mm hmm.
18:56.19
helenkwills
and
19:04.32
helenkwills
you
19:15.99
Jon Wilson Cooper
And I think that’s the beginnings, ah that’s part of shame, is having an experience that is taboo. There’s something terribly, terribly wrong about this. And so I got the message, I think, growing up, the fact that they never talked about how difficult it was having my brother meant that that clearly was not something we should ever contemplate. And I think that’s what was going on for them. it’ They couldn’t go there.
19:43.74
Jon Wilson Cooper
it was just too awful to talk about.
20:15.12
Jon Wilson Cooper
Just go for it.
20:19.20
helenkwills
Yeah, so you talked about shame. um and know Yeah, I want to kind of pick your brains on what that feels and feels like and get you to just explain if you will,
20:33.64
helenkwills
for the listeners, anyone who’s in this situation as ah as a parent or as an individual who’s experienced it in within their family, because we’re not we’re not just talking about children with deafness, we’re talking about children with anything that is noticeably different about them, anything that is more challenging than, I’m doing air quotes for those who are just listening, the the norm.
20:59.64
helenkwills
um
21:02.65
helenkwills
What does shame feel like? How does it manifest? How do people know that shame is what they are experiencing in this situation? ah Maybe as parents or as siblings.
21:16.93
Jon Wilson Cooper
Yeah, um I think one of the things that people muddle up is guilt and shame. So guilt is I’ve done something wrong. I feel bad about something I’ve done, but I can do something about that. I can apologize, not do it again. I can restore in a way. Shame runs a lot deeper, which is I am wrong. There’s something faulty about me. um And I think what’s really important for us as human beings is to belong.
21:42.55
Jon Wilson Cooper
Belonging is essential to our survival. we We don’t exist in a vacuum. We need each other. So we’ve got this very deep drive to belong. Belong to a group, belong to a family, have people in our lives, have connections. And I think anything that threatens that possibility of belonging becomes problematic. So in my case, being in a disabled family meant I felt different.
22:09.85
Jon Wilson Cooper
to my peers. I felt different to all the people I was in school with. I didn’t know anybody else that had a disabled sibling. So I felt different. And that difference translates, I think, in a child to there’s something wrong with me. I don’t belong here. um And people are going to discover there’s something wrong with me. So I think the incident with the would see my brother with the hearing aid is like, oh, I’ve been found.
22:36.66
Jon Wilson Cooper
I’ve been discovered as being different and wrong. and So that’s I think that’s the origins of shame. And then what happens with that is that we then want to hide that part of ourselves.
22:50.76
Jon Wilson Cooper
So when I was talking about going into town with my brother, what I wanted most in the world was hide my family’s disability.
22:59.38
helenkwills
Mm hmm.
22:59.42
Jon Wilson Cooper
I wanted to hide my brother. I didn’t want people to know that I was disabled in the sense. so that’s That’s one level of it is ah hiding difference and not talking about it.
23:13.33
Jon Wilson Cooper
um And that’s kind of stayed with me quite a lot.
23:14.68
helenkwills
Wow.
23:16.76
Jon Wilson Cooper
ah It’s something I don’t talk about an awful lot. um And I remember somebody a few years ago saying to me, you never use his name. So it’s always just like my brother when I do talk about him, which is kind of interesting.
23:31.31
helenkwills
yeah yeah
23:32.98
Jon Wilson Cooper
So that there was a kind of disconnect in me. um And I realized that quite, ah yeah, I lived two lives. I was split. um And it’s interesting listening to people that come from two cultures.
23:46.88
Jon Wilson Cooper
ah who have a similar experience that, you know, if you’re English Asian, for instance, there was one of the speakers at TED this year in St. Albans, who was talking about the split between her Asian family and her very white identity in the outside world.
24:03.27
Jon Wilson Cooper
And that really resonated with me because I think I did the same.
24:03.32
helenkwills
Yeah.
24:06.34
Jon Wilson Cooper
I had my outside life and my friends and school and very much a kind of a whole personality that was drawn in the outside world.
24:17.00
helenkwills
Yeah.
24:17.13
Jon Wilson Cooper
And then there was John in home. And the other thing the other speaker spoke about which resonated was how mortified I would have been for the two worlds to me.
24:26.96
helenkwills
Yeah.
24:27.71
Jon Wilson Cooper
I didn’t want the outside world to come into my home. I didn’t want friends to come around to my house. um And I didn’t want my house to go and interact with the outside world. So I think that’s a ah strong factor with shame that when we feel shame,
24:43.43
Jon Wilson Cooper
We actually want to hide. We want to split off and deny that part of ourselves. it If possible, make it not exist. you know so yeah Your parents are so embarrassing.
24:53.79
helenkwills
I think that’s going to resonate with quite a lot of people, because i think I actually think that a lot of teenagers do a little bit of that anyway, as as we all grow up and want to separate from our very embarrassing parents.
25:06.30
Jon Wilson Cooper
yeah ah
25:07.95
helenkwills
um ah Yeah, I think families with um with children who have got something different and challenging, that’s going to land really significantly for them, I think.
25:21.50
helenkwills
um What do you think?
25:27.92
helenkwills
I’ve got three questions in my head. I’m going to go with this one. Have you have you spoken to your parents since as an adult now ah about what happened and how you felt?
25:43.48
Jon Wilson Cooper
ah Very little, I mean, they They both died quite a few years ago now, so I mean, the opportunity is gone. um And I left home while I was still at school, which means that ah those there was a kind of limit to my relationship with my parents, actually. I think it was it goes very deep and very far-reaching that I didn’t have very open communication with them. um Yeah, I mean, certainly not talking about my brother.
26:14.42
Jon Wilson Cooper
ah I did have quite quite a a row actually with my dad once, which was similar to what you’re asking. um They were experimenting with my brother going into respite care.
26:27.29
Jon Wilson Cooper
um this was said They moved to North Wales, which is why I left home because they moved to North Wales while I was still at school and I stayed in this neck of the woods. um So in North Wales, I went to visit them and they were trying out respite care for my brother.
26:37.33
helenkwills
right yeah
26:44.96
Jon Wilson Cooper
um So he would go into a care home for a week and come out again And we it happened to coincide with when I was up there that we were going to pick him up So we went to this care home to pick him up and in the care home in the living room There was a woman who was it almost horizontal in a wheelchair ah one of these kind of reclining ones who was pretty much totally disabled and The whole time we were there. She was screaming just screamed and screamed and screamed, just made all this noise the whole time.
27:18.60
Jon Wilson Cooper
And as we came away, and I was sitting in the car with my parents, um I said, it makes you question whether or not her quality of life is worth it, whether you know she would have been better off not not being alive really.
27:31.05
helenkwills
Right.
27:34.92
helenkwills
Right.
27:36.10
Jon Wilson Cooper
And my dad completely lost his temper. He says, you can’t question that.
27:39.53
helenkwills
right
27:41.08
Jon Wilson Cooper
You can’t say that. It’s not for us to decide. And I thought, oh, I really hit a nerve there. And clearly, that was something he couldn’t even contemplate that, you know that say, euthanasia would be an option, or even termination, you know the idea of terminating a baby if you believe that they were going to be severely disabled.
27:57.28
helenkwills
Yeah. Yeah.
28:05.06
Jon Wilson Cooper
um So so that was that’s probably the only experience that I can remember that I kind of raised the subject about what an awful life.
28:15.09
helenkwills
yeah
28:15.16
Jon Wilson Cooper
And ah in a sense, I was kind of suggesting, wouldn’t everybody be better off if this disabled person wasn’t here? Which which sounds really cruel, but actually, the quality of life for everybody concerned was absolutely awful.
28:31.95
Jon Wilson Cooper
Severely disabled person that just screams all day. So I think that was a bit of a warning shot that, okay, I can’t really talk to them about this.
28:42.08
helenkwills
Well, yeah yet again, that’s what was going running through my mind as you were talking about it. Yet again, you can’t talk about your opinion on any of it.
28:48.29
Jon Wilson Cooper
Hmm.
28:50.81
helenkwills
And ah i’m I’m imagining, I mean, you said that they were a very Christian, so of course that’s that touches a nerve for them, but I’m also imagining that there was an implication there in his mind that if she shouldn’t exist, should your brother exist, which is quite hard to take.
28:51.30
Jon Wilson Cooper
Yes.
28:59.31
Jon Wilson Cooper
Hmm.
29:06.53
Jon Wilson Cooper
Yes.
29:09.02
Jon Wilson Cooper
Yes, yes, I think, I think it was something that they couldn’t contemplate, really.
29:14.10
helenkwills
No.
29:15.32
Jon Wilson Cooper
They just wouldn’t go there.
29:15.59
helenkwills
Really, really hard. Yeah.
29:17.94
Jon Wilson Cooper
Because I think what it also does is it, it means acknowledging how awful this all is, which is the thing that they never did.
29:23.35
helenkwills
Yes.
29:26.65
helenkwills
No, they were just avoiding knowing how awful it was.
29:27.95
Jon Wilson Cooper
And as I say,
29:31.24
Jon Wilson Cooper
Absolutely. Yeah, which I think then became a gag to me. It was like, okay, that’s that’s, ah you know, it’s, it’s off.
29:36.22
helenkwills
Yeah.
29:40.51
Jon Wilson Cooper
You know, if we can’t do that.
29:41.14
helenkwills
Off the table again.
29:43.23
Jon Wilson Cooper
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
29:46.12
helenkwills
Yeah, the reason I ask that question is um because I wonder what your advice would be to parents who are wrestling with this kind of situation in their homes.
29:46.74
Jon Wilson Cooper
And
29:57.89
Jon Wilson Cooper
I would say, I mean, this, it sounds pretty obvious, but it’s, it takes work. And that is, don’t forget the other child. If there’s another child in this dynamic. um I’ve recently just two weeks ago, I joined a siblings group for siblings with ah ah who have got a sibling with a but um a a disability of some kind. um And I think There was quite a lot of commonality within the group about the disabled sibling always coming first.
30:30.00
Jon Wilson Cooper
um And all of us were sort of touching upon self-neglect, really, that we’ve all been raised to put our sibling first and ignore our own needs.
30:42.88
helenkwills
Right.
30:43.05
Jon Wilson Cooper
And so I think yeah we have to be quite proactive as parents when one child is demanding a lot of our attention, a lot of input. And I do acknowledge how hard this is, that that can be all encompassing, all consuming. But if there’s another child, what about them? They’re still a child, they still have the needs of a child where they need care and support, and they’ve got their emotional crises, as well as as any physical problems they might have. That working really hard to see them
31:17.69
Jon Wilson Cooper
as separate and distinct and having their own needs. um And being treated as special. One of the things that drew me to the siblings group was years ago I came across them in America and they started off, they were set up to support children who had siblings with disability. And they would do they would do summer camps for these kids and take them out and treat them, you know, treat them to some respite themselves, you know, like let’s all go and do something fun and that you’re important too.
31:48.03
Jon Wilson Cooper
And it seemed that that actually quickly evolved into really realizing that those kids needed emotional support. So they would start doing groups with these kids and actually really making the effort to talk to them about what life was like for them, which I was really inspired by.
32:02.30
helenkwills
Yeah.
32:03.74
Jon Wilson Cooper
And I thought, oh, that’s fabulous. you know I think this needs to happen.
32:08.24
helenkwills
Yeah.
32:08.51
Jon Wilson Cooper
out So, yeah, there’s a long answer, but it’s like, can you treat the other child as special from time to time?
32:17.23
helenkwills
Yeah.
32:17.69
Jon Wilson Cooper
You know, it’s a bit like I’ve had this experience myself as a parent is having a second child and realizing the first child can be losing something in that process.
32:27.76
helenkwills
Absolutely.
32:27.94
Jon Wilson Cooper
And they need. Yeah, they still need to be. They still need to feel like they’re special.
32:33.08
helenkwills
Yeah.
32:33.49
Jon Wilson Cooper
So so with my kids, I quite enjoy me and my wife going out with my older daughter sometimes on our own when when my son’s away or he’s he’s at school or something.
32:34.04
helenkwills
Yeah.
32:40.16
helenkwills
yeah yeah yeah and it’s yeah well this is the difficulty all around isn’t it everybody’s suffering everyone as you the whole family has a has a problem when one child has a problem
32:44.48
Jon Wilson Cooper
So that she gets, she still gets a bit of that time that being special, you know, that she’s important. And as I say, I really get how hard that can be if you’ve got a child with extra needs.
33:04.32
Jon Wilson Cooper
Yeah.
33:09.05
Jon Wilson Cooper
Yeah. Yeah.
33:09.31
helenkwills
And i this is when the guilt kicks in, and this happens in um stereotypical families. The guilt kicks in when the second child is born. And then that’s, I just, look, we could go into shame, but that’s a whole other episode. um I’m um’m fascinated by how that guilt turns into the shame and the people pleasing. Maybe it comes from being a people pleaser originally for vote for the reasons that you’ve mentioned.
33:36.29
helenkwills
um But yeah, parenting’s really really tough.
33:39.86
Jon Wilson Cooper
Yes, and we have limited resources and I think that’s a factor.
33:40.36
helenkwills
ah
33:44.52
Jon Wilson Cooper
We do our best. um And to some extent you know as long as you’re alive. It’s never too late You know um Having those conversations and saying actually yeah, I feel you’ve been a bit neglected I’m sorry about that like let’s do something about it.
34:01.30
Jon Wilson Cooper
You know even with an adult child Yeah
34:01.83
helenkwills
I love that you say that. Sorry, I talked over you there, but I’ve heard you say that before. I think you’ve said that to me before when I’ve been banging on about, my God, I’ve been such a bad parent.
34:16.59
helenkwills
I love that there’s still time to repair. It doesn’t stop when they go off to university and find their own friends and move out and get their own life.
34:24.35
Jon Wilson Cooper
yeah
34:27.30
Jon Wilson Cooper
Absolutely.
34:27.95
helenkwills
You can still have those conversations.
34:30.94
Jon Wilson Cooper
absolutely And I think they can be really healing from both sides. And I really firmly believe our kids don’t need us to be perfect. In fact, they learn from us being imperfect.
34:43.16
Jon Wilson Cooper
um And what they what they need is is ah the opportunity to kind of talk about stuff and process it. ah We can make mistakes.
34:51.47
helenkwills
Yeah.
34:52.65
Jon Wilson Cooper
a Remember, my first boss used to say the worst thing you can do is to a child is frighten them. Because if you frighten the child, you silence them. Whereas what we want, as hard as it is, is if we make a mistake, if we annoy our child, if they have the freedom to react, then you’ll process in it.
35:11.58
Jon Wilson Cooper
I really don’t like what you said there, dad. I don’t like the way you treated me. OK, let’s talk about it.
35:16.07
helenkwills
and Yeah.
35:17.56
Jon Wilson Cooper
it’s There’s a kind of it’s organic. It moves. So, yeah, there’s something about just being open for the conversation and not shutting it down. um Whatever that conversation is, whether they feel left out or that things are unfair.
35:34.40
Jon Wilson Cooper
um mean I think that’s a theme in all families, but it can be especially strong in a family with a disability. that there’s there’s an imbalance, there’s an unfairness.
35:41.62
helenkwills
Yeah.
35:44.72
Jon Wilson Cooper
um And I certainly felt that all my life. My brother got away with things that I could never get away with.
35:50.87
helenkwills
right yeah yeah
35:51.94
Jon Wilson Cooper
And I would be kicking him under the dining room table. I was just incensed what he could get away with that I would get told off for. um so So that sense of injustice and unfairness, that was always shut down.
36:05.66
Jon Wilson Cooper
It’s like, well, you know you need to be more understanding. He can’t help it.
36:10.22
helenkwills
yeah yeah yeah oh god yeah i’m kind of there with you um we could we could keep going um but i want to talk about the thank you for sharing all of that because i know that’s super personal but i think it’s so much of what you said there will will land with a lot of people i think um what drove you to consider getting up on a stage and talking to people about, and i ah I want to introduce the topic of, I will put the link in the show notes for anyone that’s intrigued. John spoke about why we all have the capacity to hate other people and why we shouldn’t be in denial about that. I mean, what possessed you to get up on the stage and talk about that?
36:59.19
Jon Wilson Cooper
Well, I think it worked to two levels. One was I just thought I’ve always liked Ted talks. I thought I really liked the format is it’s like, you know, you’ve got 12 or 20 minutes to put an idea across and that’s it rather than droning on for a whole day as a keynote speaker. So I like the format. First of all, I thought it was dynamic and just this idea of like an idea that you put out there. But beyond that, I just thought what a fabulous experience to do that and to to learn a new skill.
37:28.58
Jon Wilson Cooper
um I mean, it’s not obvious, but I talk to groups for a living, you know, I’m i’m a trainer. But that’s a very different style. That’s very free floating. I’m having a conversation with a group of students.
37:41.42
helenkwills
Yeah.
37:41.52
Jon Wilson Cooper
um The idea of presenting really to a sea of faces ah with no feedback is a very different skill.
37:48.89
helenkwills
yeah
37:49.83
Jon Wilson Cooper
We’re talking about keynote speaking. And I thought, what a fabulous eye opportunity to develop that skill. um And it was I mean the team were brilliant.
38:00.69
Jon Wilson Cooper
We we got coaching we got lots of feedback our scripts were analyzed um We had a ah ah voice coach working with us ah And I just felt like I learned so much from the process and being part of that whole community There’s an amazing amount of people involved in putting this together.
38:01.45
helenkwills
Yeah.
38:20.40
Jon Wilson Cooper
There must have been about 20 people in the team There was a social media team. There was a videographer team.
38:25.16
helenkwills
and
38:26.15
Jon Wilson Cooper
There was a photographer and you know, and they’re all really, really skillful professionals. So you’ve got this amazing bunch of people as well as my co speakers, who are a fabulous, really interesting bunch of people, you know, we were really supportive of each other.
38:40.42
helenkwills
Yes, they’re always fascinating. Yeah.
38:42.92
Jon Wilson Cooper
Yeah, I mean, it it felt like ah just a very special experience. So I think I got a sense of that when I applied, I just I want to be part of this.
38:52.85
helenkwills
yeah
38:53.24
Jon Wilson Cooper
um And it it it has been just it’s been absolutely wonderful.
38:53.92
helenkwills
yeah
38:57.95
Jon Wilson Cooper
Um, it’s been ah a lovely experience a lovely thing to be a part of and i’m kind of really proud of what we all did I mean, I really you know, I don’t It’s not down to one person.
39:08.20
Jon Wilson Cooper
It’s a little bit like the oscars where The main actor gets all the glory and it’s like actually it probably takes two three hundred people to make a movie Yeah, the actor is a very small part of it and I feel a bit like that with ted It’s like yeah, I did a talk but actually without all those people
39:17.53
helenkwills
o
39:22.22
helenkwills
Yeah.
39:25.89
Jon Wilson Cooper
None of this would have happened. And I certainly wouldn’t get the the views I got if the quality of the output wasn’t top notch.
39:32.58
helenkwills
Yeah, it is a very good um organization.
39:33.52
Jon Wilson Cooper
you know
39:36.44
helenkwills
This is t TEDx and Albans we’re talking about. They were in their second year. is it Was it second year?
39:41.01
Jon Wilson Cooper
Yeah. Yes. Yeah, this is the second time.
39:42.80
helenkwills
um And they’re growing, it’s going to be even bigger next year. um and But I think everywhere TEDx is is a really professional organisation.
39:47.19
Jon Wilson Cooper
Yeah.
39:53.07
helenkwills
What an amazing opportunity. How how did you deal with the nerves of being up there?
40:00.20
Jon Wilson Cooper
um Probably against everything else I say when I’m a trainer, I actually just kind of blocked it. ah I was very nervous in the lead up because I just couldn’t remember my speech.
40:12.90
Jon Wilson Cooper
I went over it and over and over it. And I had real difficulty remembering it all. And I think part of the problem was the way I’d written it was actually quite disconnected. It was a lot of ah different concepts, different ideas, whereas most people told a story.
40:24.96
helenkwills
Okay.
40:29.39
Jon Wilson Cooper
And that feels a lot more organic and simpler. ah So I had real problems get remembering it all. So I was the nerves were there before a lot.
40:41.16
helenkwills
Yeah.
40:41.71
Jon Wilson Cooper
And then on the day, I just thought, I’ve just got to do it. You know, I was backstage about to go on and i’ just say, just do it, just go out there and do it. um And you actually try not to focus too much on my nerves, just focus on delivery.
40:51.44
helenkwills
Yeah.
40:58.17
Jon Wilson Cooper
You know, and yeah, don’t overwhelm myself. There was there’s a few tips I picked up as well about what you’re telling yourself about how it’s going to go.
41:09.37
Jon Wilson Cooper
So you know, literally, if you’re sort of imagining that he goes badly, you’re going to be very nervous. And somebody said even imagine it going well is a distraction. You’ve just got to be in the moment.
41:19.53
helenkwills
Right.
41:20.67
Jon Wilson Cooper
So what I tried to do as I walked out on stage is just focus on delivering nothing else.
41:20.97
helenkwills
Yeah. Yeah.
41:27.02
helenkwills
Yeah.
41:28.13
Jon Wilson Cooper
um and And that seemed to help.
41:28.24
helenkwills
Yeah, it’s kind of like the exam nerves thing.
41:30.10
Jon Wilson Cooper
um Looking at the video now. Yeah, yeah it was it was prior. And then, yes, like if you if you go into an exam knowing your subject, it’s actually quite a buzz.
41:42.40
Jon Wilson Cooper
You know you can you can focus and just do it. and and Yeah, it was a bit like that.
41:47.12
helenkwills
Yeah.
41:48.01
Jon Wilson Cooper
looking Looking at the video now, I can see that i my voice was kind of shaky throughout. um But I’m actually okay about that because I think that’s emotionally appropriate what I was talking about was emotional and It it probably added that the fact that I was a little bit hesitant or a little bit shaky You know, I don’t feel bad about that actually Hmm.
42:00.40
helenkwills
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
42:07.13
helenkwills
yeah Yeah, you looked, um I was in the audience, you looked just thoughtful. um Like you were really thinking about what you had to say.
42:13.32
Jon Wilson Cooper
Yeah Yeah
42:14.65
helenkwills
So yeah, I think you’re absolutely right. It did add to it. Anyone who is interested, and um I can’t imagine you wouldn’t be, the talk is called, ah why, why do we hate?
42:26.38
helenkwills
Is that right?
42:30.23
Jon Wilson Cooper
Yes. um I mean, what I’ve what I was fascinated by really, it came out of an article I wrote a long time ago, where I thought, we are constantly looking at being loving, being kind, how we, you know, we’re trying to be, you know, offer each other unconditional positive regard and these sorts of ideas. And I thought, well, we’re we’re missing something here, which is so often we don’t do those things. So often,
42:58.05
Jon Wilson Cooper
where we can be cruel and unkind. And I think it’s it’s quite ah dangerous, actually, to see the bad people as being so something different.
43:09.83
Jon Wilson Cooper
ah We’ve got this underlying concept of our society that some people are just bad or some people are evil, which is very simplistic.
43:10.45
helenkwills
Yeah.
43:17.06
helenkwills
Yeah.
43:17.86
Jon Wilson Cooper
And it just means, oh, it’s somewhere over there. It’s not me.
43:21.08
helenkwills
Yeah.
43:21.96
Jon Wilson Cooper
And the reality is, if you look at world history, it is ordinary people that do horrible things. um As I said in the talk, that, you know, most Nazis were very ordinary people.
43:34.42
Jon Wilson Cooper
They weren’t exceptional. A lot of them were kind of clerks and sort of middle class, you know, fairly normal people. And so what I was quite fascinated and I am very really quite fascinated by what switches that switch, what gets us to, you know, switch into being horrible, horrible to
43:53.44
helenkwills
Yeah.
43:57.34
Jon Wilson Cooper
And we can all do it. And we can all do it on lots of different levels. So we could be horrible to ourselves. We can be horrible to our kids, let alone on the global scale. So that was that was the motivation.
44:05.46
helenkwills
Yeah.
44:07.30
Jon Wilson Cooper
That was what I was interested in. um And the more I kind of looked at it, the more I thought, there’s so many different aspects to this.
44:11.39
helenkwills
Yeah.
44:15.21
Jon Wilson Cooper
There’s so many different ways in which we can be horrible.
44:15.52
helenkwills
yeah
44:17.98
Jon Wilson Cooper
know
44:18.83
helenkwills
yeah go and and and um we’re not and none of us is immune to it that’s the point that i think you are making that i really like so everybody that’s uh listening right now if you’re and fascinated by this idea that you don’t like to think of yourself as someone that could hate hate another person um go and have a watch of john’s talk the link is in the show notes or you can find it on st august ted x um we find it on the ted x site um ah the links in the show notes just press the link
44:23.32
Jon Wilson Cooper
No.
44:48.35
helenkwills
um John, ah we ah we’ve got to draw it to a close. I wish we could carry on for a lot longer, but I feel like I could sit and chat to you. for ah a Well, but but we have, haven’t we? Chattered for nearly a week at a time and it’s still never enough. um Thank you so much for sharing everything that you’ve had to say today. Let people know where they can find you.
45:15.46
Jon Wilson Cooper
um The Albany Center in St. Albans our main website is the Albany Center comm I’m also quickly trying to redevelop my website, which is JohnWilsonCooper.com. um It’s a bit basic at the moment, but that that is taking off in the next week or so.
45:35.97
helenkwills
amazing. So I will put links to both of those and the Albany Centre is also on Facebook and John is on LinkedIn, I’ll put those links in the show notes as well. Thank you so much for being with us today John.
45:50.55
Jon Wilson Cooper
Thank you for having me. It’s been a pleasure. Cheers.